Sorry Seems to Be the Hardest Word

Todd and Erin Stevens share their expertise from Renovation Marriage, offering powerful insights on forgiveness as a foundation for healthy marriages. They explain the key differences between forgiveness and trust, and how proper apologies can transform conflict into connection.

• Forgiveness cancels a debt from the past, while trust is a process that looks to the future
• A godly apology includes listening, empathizing, taking responsibility, and committing to change
• Pride prevents us from empathizing and keeps us stuck in harmful patterns
• Even when you don't feel sorry for your actions, you can express sorrow for the pain they caused
• Trust requires total transparency and patience—the hurt partner sets the timeline
• Daily connection times beyond logistics help couples avoid getting stuck
• Placing God at the center of marriage provides the foundation for lasting relationship health

After the episode, go and follow the Marriage Mondays' Facebook page, where you can participate in polls, suggest future topics, and join our podcast community. 

For more information on Renovation Marriage, go to www.renovationmarriage.com.

Transcript

Introducing Marriage Mondays

Angela James 0:07

Thank you for joining me . Your host , Angela James , for Marriage Mondays , where , the first Monday of every month , we'll be offering hope and building community as we learn how to build godly marriages together . After the episode , go and follow the Marriage Mondays' Facebook page , where you can participate in polls , suggest future topics, and join our podcast community . You can also check out our show site for links to show notes , referenced books and ministries and more . Let's get started . We are here with Marriage Mondays, and I'm really excited to have my friends Todd and Erin Stevens . You guys were actually Brushy Creekers, what 25 years ago ?

Todd Stevens 0:55

Yes , and that makes me feel very old . How long ago that is .

Erin Stevens 0:59

We lived here from 1994 to 2000 . Back in the day . We're old Brushy Creekers .

Angela James 1:06

Well , that's how I met you guys and I'm so grateful that we've been good friends all these years . But you guys left Brushy Creek to go and

Meet Todd and Erin Stevens

Angela James 1:16

pursue church planting, which was exciting, in Nashville , Tennessee . And you've pastored in Michigan and Mississippi . Is there anywhere else ?

Todd Stevens 1:27

In Tennessee .

Angela James 1:28

Tennessee . That's right , but you guys are doing something really exciting right now , which is why I've invited you to be a part of this . So tell us about Renovation Marriage and what that is and what you do .

Todd Stevens 1:41

Yeah , well , thanks , we're excited to be here and Renovation Marriage is a nonprofit organization that does weekend marriage intensives and so the weekend runs from Friday evening through Sunday afternoon and we'll set up generally in hotel banquet rooms to have , say , 20 to 30 couples there and they'll come from all over and I would say two-thirds of the couples there or more are at some level of crisis , whether they are separated , already filed for divorce and trying to figure out custody , or at a stage where they're just feeling like roommates and not really connecting emotionally or relationally very well .

Todd Stevens 2:27

There will be a few there that are just kind of there for maintenance to try to improve . But yeah , our main goal as an organization is to be the most effective marriage workshop in America in terms of helping people to make significant progress in their relationship Mary's Workshop in America in terms of helping people to make significant progress in their relationship and also , at the same time , the most affordable , to have a registration cost at a price point that anybody who needs help can get it and not feel like they're not able to get the help they need just because they don't have enough funding .

Angela James 3:00

Yeah , that's great . Well , we are going to link your website in our show notes and Adam and I actually got to sit in on one of those weekends and volunteer with you guys this weekend and it was really great material and we saw even this weekend some wonderful momentum and some relationships , and so that was really exciting . And one of the things you guys talked about a lot was forgiveness

The Power of Forgiveness in Marriage

Angela James 3:26

and being able to express an apology correctly and forgive correctly , and so , you know , in any marriage in trouble , or just the day-to-day marriage , that's important , that's important in all relationships , but especially in marriage , and so I wanted us to talk today just about forgiveness , appropriate apologies , that kind of thing . So , just to get started , why do you think forgiveness is central to the gospel and to marriage ?

Todd Stevens 3:58

I think that forgiveness is central to the gospel because of what Jesus modeled for us . You know thinking through . You know John 13 , 34 and 35 , where Jesus says a new command I give you love one another . You know , as I have loved you , so you must love one another , and by this all men will know you're my followers if you love one another . And so the way people will know that we're with him and following him is our love for each other and specifically the way he loved us , and so part of that is the way that we forgive others , just as Jesus forgave from the cross and everything he did through the cross . So I see it as very fundamental and foundational to the gospel , for sure , For sure , For sure .

Erin Stevens 4:45

And in marriages a lot of times I think people think that if I forgive them , then I automatically , you know I'm going to have to forget , or you know , automatically trust again , or you let them off the hook , Right , Right , and as Todd , as we teach in that weekend about canceling that debt , which Todd can go into more . But you know that's not exactly what's happening . You're setting yourself free when you forgive , and often you know it's something that's needed over forgiving multiple times in the course of a marriage . Right , Because we're all going to mess up daily . Sometimes in a marriage there's always going to be a chance to overlook or forgive .

Todd Stevens 5:26

Yeah , I think to keep the marriage moving forward in a healthy direction , we need to , when we're the one that is wrong , to be quick , or quicker to own it and ask for forgiveness . And when we're the one that has been wronged , we need to be quick to grant that forgiveness when things happen so they can be healed .

Angela James 5:44

To grant that forgiveness when things happen so they can be healed . Yeah Well , and like you talked about , let's start with apologizing and how we do that with humility . So what do you think

Crafting a Godly Apology

Angela James 5:52

a godly , real apology looks like ?

Erin Stevens 5:56

Yeah .

Angela James 5:56

And not just a cultural , I'm sorry .

Todd Stevens 5:58

Yeah , I think that having what I would call a godly apology probably starts , even before you get to the apology , with defining the problem correctly in terms of what is it we're apologizing for ?

Todd Stevens 6:11

Because so often when we're hurt we just lash out and we're hurting , so we cause other hurt and damage , and now everybody's hurting and everybody probably needs to apologize pretty soon .

Todd Stevens 6:22

So it starts with just hey , here's the fact of what happened and then here's what it did to me , here's the hurt I'm carrying because of that , and expressing that in a way that's not going to do more damage but invite the person to take some ownership of it and move forward .

Todd Stevens 6:48

Godly apology is it's going to start with really listening and maybe , if necessary , asking questions to understand where the person is coming from , why what we did hurt them , as opposed to just being defensive about the fact that we might have done something to cause damage . So really trying to listen and then to empathize , to connect with their emotion . You know whether that's what we would feel in that situation or not . We don't need to correct them , say no , that's not what you should feel . We need to say , okay , that is what they feel , and I know what that feels like , and so I kind of take that emotion on myself so I can say , okay , I don't want you to feel ridiculed or humiliated or ashamed , Whatever it is they're saying that I've made them feel I need to empathize with that and express that I understand it .

Erin Stevens 7:33

Then I'm ready to say , okay , I'm sorry , I'm sorry for causing you to feel that way , I was going to say , one of the reasons we named our ministry Renovation Marriage is because , well , like I was going to say , one of the reasons we named our ministry Renovation Marriage is because , well , like , I like to tell people , if you own a home or rent , there's always something to work on , whether you just need to change a light bulb or paint a wall or you need to , you know , recarpet or do more major renovations .

Erin Stevens 7:58

And part of our weekend is teaching tools , and one of those tools is this share model that we not only teach but they practice . And that's really teaching , you know , not only when they apologize and say they're sorry and the empathy component , but also , from now on , this is what I'm going to do differently . It gives them a chance to say I'm sorry , you know , and , of course , ask for forgiveness , but before that's even done is this is what I'm going to do different next time , so that hopefully , this doesn't happen again , and that's a powerful part of that model .

Todd Stevens 8:31

Yeah , for sure .

Angela James 8:32

That's awesome . Well , what role do you think pride plays in marital conflict ? Because I think too . You know , like I said , we participated this weekend . We saw the share model play out , we saw you guys role play that in front , and there's a level of humility to a real apology . So what part does pride play in keeping us from that or in keeping us in marital conflict , do you think ?

Forgiveness vs. Trust Rebuilding

Todd Stevens 9:06

keeping us in marital conflict . Do you think , yeah , we've found that people will come through the workshop successfully and be able to work through this model toward forgiveness to the extent at which they're willing to be humble and transparent . If they're not , they're going to fall into the same old patterns that they already have probably been in . That got them to the weekend of being defensive or turning it around and complaining and trying to put the blame on you or just withdrawing from the conversation and trying to avoid dealing with anything . I think pride keeps us from engaging in a meaningful way with whatever the issue is , and we end up stuck in these patterns and we're like you already brought this up 17 times . Why are we still talking about it ? Well , we're still talking about it because you never healed it right , you never truly repented in a meaningful way to make sure we don't keep getting back here .

Erin Stevens 9:52

Well , pride is a huge enemy of empathy . So I can't tell you the number of times especially women have come out of our conference and said for the first time in 27 years , he finally heard me , I was heard , I was listened to , he understood . Through the model , he was able to actually empathize . And a lot of times , if we're prideful , that's just not going to happen . I don't care how you're feeling , I want you to know how I'm feeling and I'm hurting . And so if you're prideful , it's not going to be about the other person , it's always going to be about you .

Todd Stevens 10:29

Yeah , and that's where , there again , I think it really does come back . Come back to defining the problem well , in how I present what I'm feeling , because if I come in hot and you know I'm just going nuclear right out of the gate , just like when you pull up to somebody in traffic and just go off on them for a while in the world , they cut you off back there . Never once do they respond like oh , thank you so much , sir , for calling my attention to this driving area and I appreciate you screaming at me to make sure that I heard you really well . No , they're defensive , right , they react against it automatically , and that's what we do when we come in hot as well . So when the person that's hurting comes in with some vulnerability and some humility themselves , then they open the door for the other person to understand not only what they feel but what they're feeling themselves , and to be open to a compromise or to doing something different , rather than feeling like I've got to defend my turf here because I'm getting attacked .

Angela James 11:28

Yeah , that's good , that's good . So what do you say to somebody when they come to you and they don't feel sorry ?

Todd Stevens 11:37

Yeah , that's really common , and I'll tell you , what leads to that a lot of times is the fact that they both got hurt around the same issue Is somebody did something that caused some hurt , whether it was a misunderstanding or not , and the way the other person reacted . Now they got some hurt too , you know , and so they're both hurting around the same issue . So they don't want to take ownership of that . But what I coach people to do and couples to do , is okay if you really , at your core , are sure you're 100% in the right first of all , you're probably not . But if you're sure that you are and you didn't do anything wrong , but they're hurting because of what you did , even if you're not sorry or can't honestly say you're sorry about what you did , you can still say you're sorry that you caused them pain Right , you did .

Todd Stevens 12:25

You can still say you're sorry that you caused them pain , right . And so what can you do in the future , as perfectly right as you were , to do it differently in a way that's not going to lead to them getting hurt again , so that you don't end up back in the same place in a week and you could actually make some changes . That'll be a little more productive . Yeah , that's a good thought , just that'll be a little more productive .

Angela James 12:42

Yeah , that's , that's a good , that's a good thought . Well , moving from the apologizer to the forgiver , how do you forgive when you're still deeply hurt ?

Todd Stevens 12:57

Yeah , good question . I think the reason we have such a hard time forgiving so often is because we have a misunderstanding of what forgiveness is . Like Aaron was saying earlier , we think we're letting them off the hook , or we're saying it's not a big deal or , in this case , that it's a feeling , that we think forgiveness is a feeling , and I'm still mad so I can't forgive . Well , that's not the same thing . Even if I'm still upset , hurt , angry , I could still make this choice to forgive , because forgiveness is not about saying it didn't hurt . It's saying I'm going to cancel the debt and not that there was no debt . There's a legitimate debt there that I'm owed , but I'm going to choose to basically write that off .

Todd Stevens 13:41

And I'm not doing it because you deserved it . I'm doing it because it's what Jesus did for me , and so , yes , I'm offended , but before that I was an offender Right , and so I've got to recognize that the power for me to forgive somebody else comes from the fact that I've been forgiven myself , because I could stand in the shadow of my hurt all day long and defend and explain why I'm so right to not ever grant forgiveness to this other person . But when I stand in the shadow of the cross , all that garbage falls away and I've got to recognize . No , I need to forgive because I've been forgiven , because I've said , as a follower of Christ , I want to love others the way he loves me and that's the way he loves me and again we talk about quite a bit in our workshop is that forgiveness is not necessarily trust .

Erin Stevens 14:28

You know , forgiveness can be granted , but trust often has to be rebuilt over time . Right , for sure yeah .

Angela James 14:36

Yeah , and that was actually my next question .

Todd Stevens 14:39

What's the ?

Angela James 14:39

difference between forgiveness and rebuilding trust .

Todd Stevens 14:43

Well , there's a few , and it is a big thing , because people get that muddled all the time . First of all , forgiveness is a choice . It can happen in a moment . As Erin was saying . Trust , that's a process that's going to take some time , generally when it's been broken

Handling Repeated Conflict

Todd Stevens 14:58

. The other thing I would say , though , is also forgiveness is about the past , trust is about the future , right , so it's . Which direction am I going to focus on First ?

Todd Stevens 15:09

When I forgive what's happened in the past , that's a gift that I'm giving , but I'm not just giving it to the other person . Even more so , I'm giving it to myself . I'm setting myself free from the bitterness that I'm going to end up carrying around if I don't forgive it . I could carry this debt around and justify myself for the rest of my life , but it's probably still not ever going to get paid back . Even if they apologize , I'm still going to feel like I'm owed something because I can't go back and change time . So forgiveness is about the past and canceling that debt back there . Trust is about the future . So you know okay , how are we going to move forward . How can I reestablish a relationship with you after you've already done this thing five times and said every time that you weren't going to do it again . I can hopefully forgive that and say you know , the past is forgiven , the debt is canceled . That's not the same thing as saying I'm going to jump back into a relationship with you and assume everything you say is true or everywhere you told me you went , you did or what you know , whatever else it might be . I'm going to learn from that and so to really rebuild trust , it takes total transparency and a commitment to the process .

Todd Stevens 16:26

The person who's hurt gets to dictate what is needed to rebuild this and how long is it going to take . Where I see couples fall short all the time is where the the offender I'll call them is like I've been doing this for nine months already . Why won't she let it go ? It's like well , that's not your problem , buddy , that's not your call . You know she's the one that gets to decide whenever trust has been rebuilt . You can't microwave it . You know you can't . You can't throw it up in a day . You got to . You got to let that process play out . For trust to happen , the other person has to do something . For forgiveness to happen . Really , it only takes me to make that choice .

Angela James 17:04

And how about boundaries ? How does boundaries play into that ?

Todd Stevens 17:10

I think boundaries come into play in terms of what exactly it is that they did and what is going to make me feel safe or make me feel like we're moving in the right direction . So that's why , for me , the automatic is always total transparency . If there's something you're still hiding , then we don't have the right boundaries . Again , the person who's hurt gets to set it , and it's not necessarily that it's a forever change like forever . You've got to be on Life360 and show me where you are , or you've got to let me look at all your text messages every night . But for now , you know that might be what it is . And as trust gets rebuilt , maybe some of those boundaries start to fall away , kind of like scaffolding . They're not necessary anymore . But yeah , that's going to be an important part of rebuilding that process is having those scaffolding boundaries to make sure everything's moving in the right direction .

Angela James 18:04

Yeah , that's good . Well , how do you guys guide couples through and kind of going along with this trust and boundaries ? How do you guide couples through repeated conflict or repeated offenses ? Is there any coaching tip that you have for that that you could share with our listeners ?

Todd Stevens 18:25

Well , if we're talking about specifically forgiveness , I take them to Matthew 18 , where Peter basically asked that question how many times should I forgive ? Seven times , aren't you impressed , jesus ? I'm so forgiving . He's like no , let's go with 77 . Let's go with extreme forgiveness , which is the point that he's making there . That again , it's different from trust . It's not about that you trust them if they keep doing over and over , but that you continue to cancel that debt over and over to set your own heart free of the bitterness that'll start to grow otherwise , if you don't .

Erin Stevens 19:00

I'm even going to go on a little tangent here . In our culture today we're seeing so many people choosing to be offended about everything , sometimes living offended , and that's just so dangerous for a marriage . I mean , there are days that you know Todd has just ticked me off because of whatever and I've just got to choose to overlook , you know . I mean , as I often say , you know I got to choose which hill to die on right , and so sometimes this whole part of forgiveness and apologies and all of that is just simply let's just really work hard to be as empathetic and understanding of each other as we can and we also teach to believe the best about each other , no matter what , as long as we can . That's a big part of being forgiving and boundaries and learning just not to be so easily offended , especially inside of a marriage relationship .

Todd Stevens 19:59

Yeah , yeah , because we're all going to have things that happen that offend us . I mean , that's a given , you know . Jesus even said you know these offenses are going to come , but living offended is a different thing

When to Seek Marriage Help

Todd Stevens 20:09

. And these things are going to happen to us but they don't define us , they don't dictate the direction of our lives , unless we let them right . How we respond to what happens to us is what determines where we go next and how we feel and how our relationship can move forward .

Angela James 20:26

Yeah , we were talking about that this weekend , adam and I , you know , in between sessions , and he was saying there are times I could sit and think she is irritating the snot out of me , like why is she like that ? Sure , and he said , but instead of cause a big blow up , or I have he the ? The um phrase he kept using was I , I choose to die to myself , that I have .

Angela James 20:52

I'm choosing to love , I'm choosing not to be offended , as you said , and and that's huge for us to be able to just let the little offenses go , just knowing you know I'm assuming dating a lot of times , even who we marry .

Erin Stevens 21:07

We're very opposite from Opposites attract , but after a while opposites annoy , right , and I think we've probably all seen that in marriages , and so , yeah , we've just got to again choose to overlook and forgive as quickly as possible .

Todd Stevens 21:33

Well , and Solomon writes in Proverbs I think it might be Proverbs 17 , maybe verse 9 , where he says it's to one's glory to overlook an offense right , you know , I could find fault all day long , like I'm getting paid for it , you know and score all kinds of points and win that contest easily .

Erin Stevens 21:48

What are you talking about ?

Todd Stevens 21:50

But , you know , maturity and wisdom allows you to be a little more patient and to overlook those little things that maybe they don't need to be addressed . You know , I think that we often regret things we say . We rarely regret what we don't say . Sometimes we just got to zip it and keep our mouth shut for maybe about 15 seconds till that additional surge of emotion passes and then it's like , ok , I can , I can overlook that , I can move forward in it's like , okay , I can overlook that , I can move forward .

Erin Stevens 22:20

Well , and something else we discover in our we teach nine different sessions over the course of 36 , 48 hours . It's very . It's an intensive for a reason , and we talk a lot about emotional needs . And what are Todd's emotional needs ? What are my emotional needs ? And we tend to be much more patient with each other when we understand each other's emotional needs . You know , I guess it's different than love languages , which I think we all kind of understand , but the emotional needs are a list of 13 things that because I understand , say , todd's need for importance or whatever . You know , I'm more patient with him when he does tend to tick me off or irritate me in that way , because I realize oh , I see what's happening here . That stems from perhaps his family of origin , perhaps the way he was raised , and I can be more patient and understanding because I understand his emotional needs better .

Todd Stevens 23:10

That's good .

Angela James 23:10

Yeah , yeah , and you can always add more words .

Erin Stevens 23:15

You can't subtract words after they've been said Girl , I wish I could sometimes Well .

Angela James 23:21

So I know you guys follow Dr Gottman , as I do , and for those who don't know , dr John Gottman is a relationship expert , a relationship researcher , and one thing he said was that couples generally know that there's a problem for six years before they seek any help , and obviously we all know that is not the best way to have a healthy marriage . So what would you say ? When should couples seek help from their pastor , from a professional ? What would you say about that ?

Todd Stevens 23:58

Yeah , I would say , as quickly as possible , and even if you don't feel like you have a problem , do it for the sake of maintenance , of making sure that you don't get there . Something that happens , it seems like , with at least one couple in every single one of our workshops , is at the end of it . Usually , honestly , the guy will say I didn't realize until we got here how bad things were . And then you know now they're making them better . But you know they each fill out these pre-workshop questionnaires and the wife is writing about how she's ready to give up . She's at her last leg . This is a last-ditch effort and he's filling his out . You know everything's great . I don't know why we're even coming to this thing and it's like , oh boy , you guys are not communicating well about what's happening here at all , and so , yeah , sometimes you've got deeper problems than you even know . So at least doing some ongoing maintenance to keep the little problems from becoming the big problems .

Erin Stevens 25:01

Yeah , we've got people that come for maintenance and they'll say we're going to come back again next year just to take the course again . And here's what's really beautiful . Ange is in almost every workshop we do and keep in mind we're doing , say , 20 to 30 couples every three weeks . There'll be people there that aren't married yet . They're coming there really for preventive maintenance , which is fantastic . I mean I wish Todd and I 30 years ago had some of the skills we're now teaching to ward off a lot of these problems . That's really healthy .

Todd Stevens 25:26

Because that's the thing I think and that's what we did , you know . We just thought , hey , we dated , like we're engaged , clearly , we know what we're doing . It worked . We're married Obviously , we're awesome at relationships , you know and so we just thought what we were doing was always going to work and it didn't . And so I think we've got to start by recognizing oh , this really is something I need to learn . This isn't something that necessarily comes naturally at all .

Erin Stevens 25:49

Well , and I think I mean Todd and I both come from families . Our parents were married over 50 years both of our parents before our fathers passed away . Healthy marriages , god-loving people . We were raised in church . They loved us . What we didn't see is healthy conflict modeled . When my parents got angry at each other , they went to their bedroom and shut the door .

Todd Stevens 26:10

Or sent us to the bedroom and shut the door .

Erin Stevens 26:12

Yeah , I mean so it's like we saw the temp , we saw the tempers flare , and then they disappeared . And then they came out and everything was fine . Well , you know , as taught as we teach at our workshop , it's you know , you've got to work at marriage . It's something that you need to learn tools . It's not something that comes automatic and natural . Nobody gave us a manual for how to be married successfully , just like nobody gives you a manual for how to be a great parent . Sometimes you know you're just throwing in the deep end right , and so we're here to help throw a life raft to people that need some help .

Angela James 26:47

That's great Well , so Brushy Creek is as you guys know . It's a church that believes in marriage . It's a church that wants to see couples live godly lives and raise godly families and be successful . From an outsider's

Finding Hope When Feeling Stuck

Angela James 27:05

view , how can churches support couples in need of forgiveness and healing ?

Todd Stevens 27:11

I think , making resources available as much as possible , whether it's podcasts like this or suggested reading lists , or even referring them to a counselor or a workshop .

Todd Stevens 27:22

I think to have , if possible , multiple avenues of support because , just like people learn in different ways , the way our brains are wired , I think people are going to look for different types of help with their relationship and benefit more from different types of relationship help . So I think that the more they can do that and the more they can make that the norm you know where it's modeled even from ministry leaders and staff to say , hey , here's what we're doing , to continue to work on our marriage . It's not like we've arrived and we don't have to ever work on it anymore . Our marriage counselor years ago told us marriage is like tending a garden you get it all set perfectly and there's still going to be some new weeds that are going to pop up . Next week you got to pull right and you're never done tending the garden and you're never done working on your marriage . So I think the more we can make the need to work on it the norm , the better , because then there's no stigma for needing help and people can look for that ?

Erin Stevens 28:22

Yeah , I would say just providing some type of ongoing ministry . I mean , I think a lot of churches pat themselves on the back because they did a marriage retreat this year . Well , that was a weekend out of 52 weekends a year and sure it was great and it of 52 weekends a year , you know , and sure it was great and it was helpful . But something ongoing whether it's the podcast or a class or some way to encourage you , know and teach these tools that are needed for healthy , successful marriages it's desperately needed in the church right now and it's greatly lacking .

Angela James 28:53

Well , I just want to close up with two last questions . One , what encouragement would you offer to someone who's listening , who just feels stuck ? And then what I want to finish up with is how can listeners connect to your ministry ? So , however , you want to close that out and let them know in the end how they can connect with you .

Todd Stevens 29:15

Yeah , stuck can mean a lot of things and does mean a lot of things for different couples . So , just kind of as a blanket statement , I would say the fastest way to start to get unstuck , I think , is to build a rhythm of a daily connect time . To get unstuck , I think it's to build the rhythm of a daily connect time Sometime , whether it's the morning when you get home from work , right before we go to bed or after we put the kids to bed , where we're going to regularly connect beyond just logistics about what did you do , what are you going to do tomorrow , who's going to take the kids and how are you doing . And maybe even something that we've taught before almost like a relationship weather report . We're just like all right , what's your weather report for relationship day ?

Todd Stevens 30:02

Is it sunny , is it partly cloudy ? Are we headed into tornado season here ? You know where are we at . It just kind of can be a quick way to gauge . Okay , let's lean in here and see what's going on . Okay , let's lean in here and see what's going on . But when couples get stuck , inevitably they're not connecting at that level . Well , and so to build in that rhythm where they can be able to check in beyond just the basic everyday stuff .

Erin Stevens 30:30

And I would also say , you know , if they're feeling stuck , you know what does their personal relationship with Jesus Christ look like ? Because , as we again , as we teach , you know he's got to be in that number one spot . I mean , as I say , todd is a great husband but he makes a lousy Jesus and God is the only one that can meet our spiritual needs , the need for significance and purpose and meaning in life , and then , of course , your marriage should be number two . So , if they're feeling stuck , what does their personal relationship with Jesus Christ look like ? Are they going to church ? Are they active in a church ? Are they plugged into a small group inside that church ? God has got to be the central heartbeat of their marriage and if he's not , then that could be part of the reason they're feeling stuck .

Todd Stevens 31:17

Yeah , and I would add that for me , that's been one of the most biggest surprises . Did I just say the most biggest ? One of the biggest surprises with doing these marriage intensives , which are clearly marketed , I guess you'd say , as a Christian workshop .

Erin Stevens 31:37

I mean Todd's been a lead pastor for 20 years . So , obviously we're going to talk about Jesus , right ?

Todd Stevens 31:42

It is how many times couples will come and at the end of the weekend they'll literally say we've been in church for years but it never occurred to us to put God in our marriage . And I'm like what you know ? But we hear that over and over and over , that it's like there's this disconnect , that I do my faith thing and I do my marriage thing and those two circles don't overlap . It's like no , they've got to be together right , unless God is at the center of it . And you've got that foundation , it's probably not going to go real well .

Erin Stevens 32:11

Correct .

Todd Stevens 32:12

Yeah , agree .

Angela James 32:14

That's great . Well , how can listeners connect with you , guys ?

Todd Stevens 32:18

Yeah , the easiest way would be just to go to our website , renovationmarriagecom , and it's something similar on Facebook and all the other social media stuff . But yeah , renovationmarriagecom , you can see details about the workshop and a calendar of upcoming

Connect with Renovation Marriage

Todd Stevens 32:35

events and what cities we're going to be in and when and all that good stuff .

Erin Stevens 32:39

So yeah , yeah , and I want to talk a minute about . You know Todd mentioned that we strive to be the most effective and the most affordable . Sometimes people actually scholarship other people to come . You know whether it's an older family that wants their younger kids that are just married to come , which is a great gift . But something we do to make it affordable is we offer scholarships , partial scholarships .

Todd Stevens 33:02

We've learned full scholarships are a bad idea , because then people don't take it seriously and don't show up .

Erin Stevens 33:05

We offer partial scholarships and we offer monthly payments . That's extremely unusual when it comes to marriage ministries , but again , we want anybody that needs help to be able to find help . We truly want to be the resource they need to teach the tools and to go back home feeling hope and a sense of restoration again .

Todd Stevens 33:29

Yeah , Well , and for our partners that do those scholarships , we provide ongoing resources . We at a minimum have these monthly bonus sessions that we send out on various issues , whether it's overcoming shame or how to turn conflict into connection , or even experiencing a meaningful sex life and we send those out every month just as added resources to help them continue to improve their marriages , just like they're making it possible for somebody else to improve theirs . Yeah .

Angela James 33:54

Well , thank you guys so much . I always love when we get to hang out a little bit , and it's even better to get to talk ministry with you guys . So I appreciate you and thank you for listening . Thanks for joining Marriage Mondays today . Don't forget to come back the first Monday of every month for the next episode . Artwork for this podcast was created by Scout Carter and Angela James . The theme music is Love , romantic , hopeful Music by M Plus , music from Pixabay you .